Ellie Cole's Couch: Amplify your inclusion

Lorna: My name is Lorna.

I'm 63 and I'm from South Africa,
and I'm working at APM Gosnells.

Ellie: Now, APM over in WA, it's a little bit
further away from South Africa, isn't it?

Lorna: It is, it is.

Ellie: So, you were born in South Africa
right near Cape Town, I understand.

What was it like there
when you were growing up?

Lorna: It was very good for me.

South Africa’s still got a base, although
there's a lot of negativity

from the news and people
that leave South Africa,

but it's still in your blood,
you know?

Ellie: And what would a typical week
look like for you growing up?

Did you have a big family back at home?

Lorna: I had two brothers.
One passed away with Covid,

during Covid, so it’s my sister
and my older brother,

so we were only like,
four children at home.

My dad passed away 13 years ago.

He lost his two legs
due to diabetes.

Ellie: Oh, really?
Lorna: Yeah. So he was also struggling with a disability

at the age of 65.

And his biggest thing was saying,
“you don't know

what work is like
until you don't work anymore.

And when you stop working,
that's when you’re ready to die.

You know, that's when you're ready to go.

So, keep on working,

doesn't matter what's coming your way.”

Ellie: I've heard that advice from quite
a lot of people throughout my lifetime.

Lorna: Yeah.

Ellie: So, you have memories of your dad

being able-bodied,
and then losing his legs to diabetes.

Lorna: And going through that journey with him.

How people treated him

because they see that he's got no legs,
and assume that he can't think.

You know, that he's now a half a person.

When he's actually exactly the
same, it’s just that he didn't have legs.

Ellie: I remember growing up -
I've only lost one of my legs -

but I remember growing up in my childhood,
and I think disability knowledge,

even back in the 1990s,
was so different to how it is now.

And I remember, a lot of conversations
that I had with people

from a generation that hadn't been
exposed as much to disability.

And a lot of people
speaking very slowly to me thinking

that I would be able to comprehend
what they were saying.

So, I had to learn a lot of self-strength

from that, and I'm sure that
your dad did too.

Lorna: Yeah, that's what he said. He’s like,
“people think because my legs are gone,

I'm only half a person,
but I'm actually still the full person.

I just lost walking.”

Ellie: And that must have been
an incredibly important lesson

for you and your siblings
to learn as well?

Lorna: Yeah, definitely,
because it was like from this proud,

hardworking man into a person
that sits in a wheelchair,

gets treated differently,
was bound to the house

when he used to be active.

Ellie: When your father lost his legs, at the time,
you were living in South Africa?

Lorna: Yeah.

Ellie: What was the support like for your father
in terms of transitioning

into a life of a disability, as well as the support
for your family? Was there any?

Lorna: You know, those years there was not really
psychology help that we've got today.

My mum had to look after my dad.

My husband used to bath him,
put him in the bath,

but like, every movement you need to do,
where you assume it's natural,

for him, was like an insult.

You know, his pride was gone because somebody
had to help him to the toilet, put into the bath,

dress him, put him back into the wheelchair.

So, the proud man was gone.

Ellie: And it sounded like he also had
a lot of his independence taken away.

And we're very fortunate now
to live in a world where oftentimes,

if you're very lucky, you can access
support to help regain that independence.

And it does make a huge difference
to somebody's quality of life, doesn’t it?

Lorna: Yeah, and also get yourself,
it helps a lot to get your confidence back

because obviously when you're diagnosed
with any disability,

first thing that goes is your confidence.

“I'm not the same anymore.

I'm scared.

I'm scared for the unknown.

I don't know what's going to be ahead.

How's work going to treat me?

How're my colleagues going to treat me?”

So, it’s all those fears.

And then at the end,
you realise when you accept

this is how it's going to be, you realise
most of the fears were unnecessary.

You stress yourself out for things that
actually never happened in your circle.

Ellie: What was the process with you

relocating to an entirely new country
at the age of 50 years old?

Lorna: Yeah, you need to make a decision.

My husband made the decision that
it’s going to be better for his children.

So, we had to sell everything,
pack up everything,

only allowed 23 kilos of luggage.

So, we arrived here, each with
23 kilos of luggage.

Ellie: One suitcase each?
Lorna: One suitcase each.

Ellie: So, you were diagnosed with Parkinson's
disease whilst working at the hotel?

Lorna: No, with APM.

Ellie: You began at APM and then you retired,
and then were diagnosed with Parkinson's.

Lorna: I was working with APM, got Parkinson’s,

and then retired for three months,
and then I went back, because they kept on phoning me,

one of my colleagues,
“come back, come back!”

I said, “okay, I’m back.”
Ellie: Missed you too much.

Lorna: Missed the clients.
Let me go back.

Ellie: Well, if we go back to your
first day at APM,

what was it like to walk through the doors
of the organisation?

At that point, you didn't actually have,
an experience yourself

with disability apart from knowing
other people that had had one.

But what was your first day like?

Lorna: So, obviously I was nervous, because more
for the computer than anything else.

The two girls that were there, were lovely.

I got in. They tried to help me.

I said, “where do you switch this computer on?”
“Just do this and that, click here and click there.

So, they actually moved next to me
and they said, “it's going to be better if we just next to you.”

That night when I got home,
I got a vertigo attack.

From looking at the screens?

It must be from stress or something,

and I went to the hospital
and I called them in

and I said, “I'm going to
be two days off work,”

and the girl said,
“oh my goodness, she's gone forever.”

And when I showed up the third day, they said “no, you're going
to be here at APM forever because you returned.”

And they have all gone, and I’m still there.
Ellie: Yeah. That's amazing.

Ellie: So, tell me about the journey with
being diagnosed with Parkinson's disease.

I only know of one other person

in my life that has Parkinson's,
but I don't know too much about it.

Lorna: Yeah, so Parkinson's started with
the tremor in my thumb.

And I thought, “oh my goodness,
what's happening now?”

And then it started to
shake in the hand.

And then the GP referred me
to the Parkinson’s research,

and then they discovered that I got Parkinson’s.
And he told me,

“you’ve got Parkinson's,” and I
was like, I didn't show any emotions,

I didn't know what he was talking about.
What is Parkinson's about?

Because in South Africa it’s not very common.

They call it - when you start
shaking over there - they say you’ve got ‘old age shaking.’

And then I ordered a book,
and I start reading the book,

and then I realised this is massive.

But I was putting it in the back of my head
and my first thing was,

“what are people going to say?”

How long before I sit in a wheelchair?

What is work going to say?

So, it was all more worried about
what are the impacts,

other areas impacted
and how is it going to impact me.

And fatigue is a big thing.

I woke up at 3 o’clock at night

and then I can’t sleep any further,
so then I need to push through

until the whole day,
and then until 10 o’clock tonight.

And it's daily, your fear is coming,

when is it my time to go to
the wheelchair?

You know, because there's no measure.

They can’t say. Some Parkinson's develops slowly,
some go fast, so hard to tell.

Ellie: That experience of being diagnosed with
Parkinson's disease for the first time,

how did it feel when you heard those words,
that you were facing,

you know, the rest of your life
with a disability

and you're not necessarily sure
how that disability is going to progress?

Lorna: It was shock.

It was a big shock,
but it shocked me in a different way.

It was like, it left me,

without a feeling.

I don't know if that makes sense.

It's like, you don't - you know
you got the message, but it doesn't sink in.

It took me a couple of months
before I really realised,

now it's not going to go away,

it's like you put it in the back
and you hide it.

And then I started to tell people,
and I told work,

and they said,
“what do you need?”

Straight away, management said,
“what do you need?”

“What can we do for you?”

“What can APM do for you?”

And I said, “at this stage, I'm okay.”
“No, we can do your desk, stand-up desk.”

They bought me a special chair.

They bought me a special mouse.

And every time when they see me say,
“is there anything you need?”

So, the support from work was massive.

And I've always felt, due to APM,
I've got the courage

to go to work every day
and push through all the barriers

and stuff, and just help
other people.

Elllie: I think that element of care
doesn't necessarily

come from the fact that
you have a disability.

I think it comes from the fact
that you're a human being.

Lorna: Yeah.

Ellie: And we love to convey, you know,
that message of care to all of the people

that walk through the door

at APM, regardless of what
their background is, regardless of what

their disability is, knowing

that they can come through the doors
and be treated like a human being.

Oftentimes, people
who are seeking assistance

and being placed into employment may
have never even been afforded that before.

Lorna: Yeah.

Ellie: So, it's wonderful to have
people such as yourself

who not only have lived experience
of disability, but are givers.

Lorna: Yeah.

Ellie: Being able to provide that, for people
who are needing help.

Lorna: Yeah, because when they come through,

they've got exactly the same feeling
that I had when I got diagnosed.

It's like, “where am I going?
What are the people going to do?”

Normally they are negative, because they see
us as a punishment for them.

They don't really understand, until you work
with them and explain to them,

“the goal is to find you a suitable job,
when you're ready.”

I'm always using the words

“when you're ready,” and then start
telling them about my journey,

and they say, “okay, I think I can do not
too much standing, three to four hours,”

I said “that sounds good.

We can do you over two days
instead of one day of eight hours.”

And then they start coming up
with solutions,

how to, what they would want to do
to help, to find a job.

Ellie: As somebody within APM who has been
provided accommodations that you need,

understanding that you need,

being able to come to work
as their complete authentic self,

good days or bad days,

how does that make you feel knowing

that you can come to work every day
exactly as you are?

Lorna: It makes me good because I'm excited
to go to work because I'm thinking,

“who am I placing today, in a job?
Whose life am I changing?”

You feel at the end of the day, you've done
something for somebody that never expected

any help from anybody,
because the world is cruel outside.

So I want them, when they come through
APM doors, to know we’re there,

we support, do the values, the core values,
do everything for them possible,

and then let them decide, “you’re ready.
You need to go to work.”

We’re here to find you a job.

But like I said, when you're ready.

Ellie: How do you feel knowing that you
provide someone

those opportunities every day
when you look back,

in your 50s, knowing that your
dad was going through

an experience where he wasn't
being provided with those opportunities,

how do you think he would feel
looking at the work that you're doing now?

Lorna: I think he would be very, very proud
and always say, “APM changed my life.”

We always say APM changed the jobseeker’s life,
but nobody really sees the side

with APM changed the employer's life.

So, by calling that one phone call

made me change a lot of people's
lives, when I wouldn't be able to.

I would never have thought

that I would be able to do the work
I'm doing today

and changing people's lives,
because it's people with disabilities.

And now that I've got it myself,
I realise how much more they need.

We're not trained, but we can help
them with our experience.

Ellie: What is your favourite part
about working for APM?

Lorna: My favourite part is definitely seeing
how the people progress from

not believing in themselves
to start building the confidence,

moving step-by-step forward,
until they get into a job,

and then getting them from four weeks,
thirteen weeks, twenty-six weeks.

Then I say, “you’ve graduate, time to fly,
to fifty-two weeks.

Don't fly away.
Just come back and say hello.”

Ellie: They've got their wings but make sure
they come home to say hi to Grandma Lorna.

Lorna: They must come home.

They must come home.

And they do come home.

They come in when they're in the area
just to say, “hello. How are you?”

Ellie: After seeing your dad go

through an experience
of acquiring a disability at a late age,

and then you yourself acquiring
your own disability at a late age,

I suppose you've seen the before

and afters of what
it's like to have a disability.

And your personalities
had already been so,

so developed by that stage as well
when you did acquire your disability.

So, what are some of the things
that you have learned about yourself

since being diagnosed
with Parkinson's disease that makes you,

not only better at your role at APM,

but also, has contributed
positively to your life?

Lorna: I think a big thing is, it's like you
you change your way of thinking.

You know, we always say
“tomorrow's another day.”

So, I live now my day as today.
Because I don't know what's happening tomorrow.

Things that you normally
would put off and say,

“I'll do it next week or the week after,”
I try to do it when it's due.

The way you look at other
people changed.

Because it's like, you know,
“did I change or did they change?”

But it's actually you that changed.

So, you change for the better,

if you get yourself out of that

shock and depression
and anxiety of what's next.

So, just accept it.

My advice to people: accept what happened.

You got a card,
you have to deal with that card now.

And the way you're going to
deal with it, will lead you to the outcome.

So, this is just how I approach every day.

Ellie: Sounds like you're saying
that you don't necessarily live your life

focusing too much on Parkinson's,

but it's actually put things
into perspective for you in a way.

Lorna: That's it.
It makes you see things differently.

It's not grey anymore.
It's either white or black.

So, your thoughts is either
positive or negative.

And it's like mental health.

I mean, you can work on it
and you can, tomorrow, you don't

people get cured
from when they go for sessions.

The importance
of talking about it, sharing with people.

Get it out of your system
because a lot of people that

got disability just keep it to themselves.

And I think the importance
is the world out there needs to know.

And also, when you put your foot down,
“I’m not going to be treated differently

because I've got a disability, I've got
the right like you to live my life.”

And I think that that message
should go out.

Ellie: I'm sure that a lot of people
that come to see you

in Disability Employment Services
are very much out of their comfort zone.

Lorna: Yeah.
Ellie: They're facing a lot of unknowns.

And oftentimes, not even at the point

where they have accepted
that they have a disability.
Lorna: Yeah.

Ellie: And so for you to sit across the desk
from them, to have one yourself, to be

able to share that information with them,
how important do you think that is?

Lorna: I think it's important
not to hide that you’ve got a disability

because you save and change lives

using your own example of life,
to share it with other people.

And they’re thinking, “if she can share it,
I can do the same.”

So, when they hear it from me,
they are at first, in shock.

When they come for the next appointment,
I say “thank you for sharing.

I had a good think at home
about what you said, makes sense.”

And I think they respect you more
because you’re sharing

something that was, like,
in the past, hidden.

Now it's vocal. We speak about it.

We're not hiding it in the closet anymore.

Ellie: And it's amazing to think
that with your dad losing his legs

to diabetes, in that moment,
I'm sure you never would have thought

about being in the position that you are
now with the mindset that you have now.

Lorna: Yeah, no. Definitely not.

Ellie: It's hard to see in
those moments, isn't it?

Lorna: Yeah, because it's like a new world opening.

It's like you see that suddenly
you realise there’re more things

valuable, like legs,
like not sitting in a wheelchair,

you know, that kind of thing -
there’s more to life.

Ellie: What are some of the benefits
that you've seen

to the employer when you place someone
with a disability in their organisation?

Lorna: For me, always, I say to the employer,
“you’ve changed somebody's life.

You’ve help somebody move forward in life.

You understand
that disability is a little bit harder

work than with people with no disability,
because they need more support,

but that's why APM are there to support them
through the journey and help them.

If you open and discuss with us,
we can discuss with the jobseeker

and we can we can make solutions
and advice and things.”

And then I think the employers -
they see benefit of changing people's lives.

I think that's the big thing.

Ellie: If an organisation was to come to APM
and say, “I would love to have somebody

with a disability come and work for us,”
what advice would you give them?

What would the first step for them
be to take?

Lorna: I’m gonna say that, “you're going
to have people that are loyal,

you're going to have people
that really want a second chance in life.

You're going to give that second chance.

You're going to change their lives.

A little bit of hard work,
but we will work together

and we will get them across the line.”

Ellie: Thank you so much, Lorna,
for your time today.

I've loved chatting to you and you’re so
incredibly passionate about what you do,

and it sounds very
rewarding for you as well.