Ellie Cole's Couch: Amplify your inclusion

Ellie: Hi everyone. I'm APM Ambassador Ellie Cole.

Today we'll be exploring the
topic of breaking down

stereotypes and stigma
when it comes to employment.

Too often, harmful stereotypes
and systemic barriers prevent people,

whether it's people with disability
or Indigenous Australians,

from accessing the employment
opportunities they deserve.

Creating a more inclusive
and diverse workforce doesn't

just benefit the individuals.

It can enhance business
performance and foster social inclusion.

By focusing on education
and raising awareness,

we can build empathy, understanding,
and help break down these barriers.

Joining me today is Austin,

National Diversity and Inclusion
Coordinator from APM Employment Services.

Austin thank you so much
for coming in today.

Are you able to start by introducing your name,
your age, and your occupation at APM?

Austin: So, my name is Austin Bruton.

I'm 44 in December,
so 43 years old.

I'm National Diversity and
Inclusion Coordinator at APM.

Been here coming up six years
actually, next Monday.

My job is pretty much, predominantly,
working with First Nations people

in the Workforce Australia contract,

but I also support other business units
when they do reach out.

So, our Disability Employment Services
unit as well.

Ellie: Let's just start off with about
where you grew up.

Were you born in Australia?

Austin: I was born in Melbourne.

Grew up in Geelong for the
first three years of my life.

And then we moved to
Brisbane, and was there,

did a couple years of primary school there,
and then over to Perth,

so wherever dad was playing,
obviously playing and coaching for the Perth Wildcats,

back then, and ended up settling here.

I've done all my high school here.

Went over to the US for college, had a basketball scholarship
at Indian Hills Community College.

Came back to Australia
and jumped into youth work.

But I tried a lot of different jobs
along the way,

and I think for me, it was about having
some work ethic and some discipline,

and, you know, as long as whatever you're doing
you enjoy it and get the most out of it,

and that's kind of, yeah, I guess got me
to where I am today.

Austin: So, when you were over in the US

playing basketball, I understand
that you obviously had to study as well,

it's part of being an athlete.

Austin: Absolutely.

Ellie: I've seen a lot of athletes
go over to the US college system,

and there's a very high standard of work
ethic in terms of

having to really apply yourself
academically,

but also having to really apply yourself

physically to the sport
that you're over there on scholarship.

How do you find managing that?

I'm sure that, you know,
there was an amazing support

from your basketball team
that you were working with.

But, as someone who said you weren't
necessarily a brainiac, how did you find that?

Austin: It was like basically jumping in the
deep end for me.

I was 17 years old,
and if I was to tell my younger self,

it probably would have been better
to go over a little bit older,

because obviously in America,
you know,

I'm with 20-21 year olds, that have kind of
‘McDonalds All-American’, been there, done that.

And here’s this little guy from Perth,
Australia, five foot nine,

playing at the number one
junior college in America.

So, the balance between study
and basketball is an interesting one.

You have to actually
stick your head in the books,

because if you don't stay eligible,
you don't get to play.

And then you’re treated
like a professional athlete.

So, you're talking six days a week,

full-on conditioning, weights, playing,

but once the season starts,
it's just, like, basketball

and you're travelling around and,

you know, you get treated
like a bit of a rockstar.

Ellie: Do you find that your experience
of being in such

an uncomfortable environment back
when you were in college,

do you find that
you really embrace that now?

Because if I look back
over my athletic career,

a lot of it I was very uncomfortable,

but I kind of really thrive off that now.

And I think it's hard.

It was hard at the time. It's really hard
to see the benefits at the time,

but looking back and reflecting on it,
I'm so glad that I did that.

Austin: Absolutely.

I think when you put yourself
in uncomfortable situations,

you actually don't know what
you can accomplish.

And I think, you know, that's what I try
and pass on to people that I work with

now, that might be in situations
that if I can do it, you can do it.

It doesn't matter where you come from.

Everyone's got inner strength
and a shining light.

And it's about harnessing
those things and, you know,

having people, kind of, support you
along the way, because

you can't do this stuff on your own,

and not everyone has the support stuff,
but you’re right

I do thrive
in uncomfortable situations.

And it's been like that for me.

Always felt like, you know, the underdog,
I had the underdog status anyway.

So, I kind of like that tag.

But I also like to achieve,

so it's almost like,
go out and give it a go

and if it doesn't work, you get back
up, dust yourself off, and try again.

Ellie: I think that's what's so remarkable
about your story in particular.

You know, the people that you work
with, the people who, you know,

you're trying to find employment for,

although you might not have lived

experience of being First Nations,
you understand what it's like to be in

an uncomfortable environment, about pushing
to get the best out of yourself,

and I think that's the bit
that you would really harness

when you're working with
people at APM, right?

Austin: I guess, where we started to
focus on was, you know,

cohort-specific activities
for training programs

where I could engage with employers
that actually cared about people,

and wanted to make a real
meaningful change,

and then getting some RTOs involved
where we could actually,

you know, tack on some tickets
if needed or whatever.

And it was just about building confidence,
resilience, and showing up every day.

It didn't matter
about where you came from,

what your background was,
whether you could read and write,

it was just about coming.

Ellie: And what do you
love most about your role there?

Austin: I guess, creating opportunities
for people that

probably wouldn't have happened otherwise,
and then seeing them

thrive in that opportunity
and go on to bigger and better things.

I did a program - I think we had 17 people,
and what we did is, once I understood

what the challenge is for the individuals -
you're talking about, seriously,

low learning literacy, numeracy challenges,

so it's like, how do you expect

to get through a theory book,
because it's not school.

And if they're showing up every day,
and the RTO was amazing,

and we were able to do
practical training,

so, get rid of the theory,
as long as you can understand

the safety components,
and the certain things you need to.

And they ended up getting a
kitted out first aid room.

So, you're talking about
measuring carpet squares,

doing marking on the walls,
all that stuff.

So, they got refurbished,
and that's how we ticked them off on

some of the qualifications,
which I thought was pretty special.

Ellie: Now in your experience,

I know this might not be an easy question
just to answer point blank, but

what are some of the biggest challenges
that you've seen with

Indigenous Australians when they're trying to
secure employment?

Austin: Well, I would have to firstly touch on,
it's the longest

living culture in the world,
so you're talking like 65,000 years.

And, again they've got their own traditions
and practices and they're not westernised.

It's not getting up, some of them might not
adapt by time, mobile phones,

digital skills on a computer,
and all that stuff.

So, you've got that already.

So, if you're talking about doing modules
on a computer or a bunch of inductions,

then you're already behind the
eight ball, and then

you've got intergenerational trauma,
you've got criminal history.

And this is just some experiences
that I've had dealing with people.

So, if you're going to sit there and,
you know, do something

and have to get on a computer,
but you don't know how to use a computer,

then that's really difficult.
And I think, being able to give those people

the same chances because, you know,
and I do understand

some employers do have requirements
which are not negotiable,

so that's that,

but there's also some employers
that can open the door and kind of brush

those requirements,
as long as people are meeting them,

and I think that's the way.

The challenge is getting rid
of the non-essential requirements,

you know, changing your ads,
having mentorship programs,

outreach programs, where you’re actually
going out to the people

and having Indigenous people that are
actually leading that, I think is key.

The more that we do that,
I think the better,

and then further along we go - the gap’s never going
to be closed, you know that’s clear,

but I think there's people out there

that want to be supportive
and continue to make change.

And I think that's the way
that the difference is going to be made

for the younger generations coming up.

Ellie: I've seen, certainly in my experience
as someone with a disability,

the importance of having representation,
particularly in leadership roles

and, you know, and the
same for our First Nations Australians.

But, I think there's a fine balance
between putting

someone from an underrepresented group
into a leadership role,

but also ensuring that they don't feel
like they have a responsibility

to represent an entire cohort of people
at the same time, and empowering,

like trying to empower everybody
within that underrepresented group.

How do you strike that balance
with Indigenous Australians?

Austin: That is a very good question, Ellie.

I mean, and this is the thing,
there is such thing as cultural load,

so if you're talking about an
Aboriginal person’s perspective,

it's not just coming to work,
so you might be in this role

in your workplace, but then you go home
and then you've got

all these other responsibilities you know,

and then it can't be the expectation

that whenever an Aboriginal person comes
in then this Aboriginal

worker of ours has to deal with it.

I think that's wrong.

I think everybody should be dealing with it.
Ellie: Same.

Austin: Yeah, and that's the learning.

But, the other side of that comes is
having that balance

and making sure that they feel supported

and comfortable enough to take the step
up and be in that leadership role.

And I think I take huge pride
in empowering our Indigenous consultants.

So, I've got an informal projects team
that I catch up with every fortnight

and kind of, I was really lucky

having Tracy and Judy
as my leaders at APM, they've kind of

got me to a level that I didn't think
that I'd be able to get to,

but it's actually having that belief,
and the backing with our teams,

our state managers,
and our regional managers, to be able

to try these things in their regions
that they want, that are tried and tested.

Because, once you got tried and
tested workshops,

then you let your First Nations
people run those.

And I think that that's
how they feel a part of it.

And then once they understand
how to do that,

then they can
then deliver their own activities.

Ellie: Now, you've spoken a lot today
about opportunity

and making sure that everyone has the same opportunity
as the person that's next to them.

I know as a person with a disability,
I've always wanted to see

people with disability have the same
opportunities as able-bodied people,

and we've spoken today about Indigenous
Australians having the same opportunities.

But what if you're an Indigenous
Australian that also has a disability,

so you're part of two
underrepresented groups.

What are the challenges there?

Austin: Well, that's another layer on top of the challenges
that I think that I've mentioned earlier.

And if I can think about a couple of

Indigenous people that I've worked with,
I feel like they are absolutely thriving.

You know, answering your ESAt, your JobSeeker
assessment at Centrelink,

it depends how you answer those questions,

and I think often we get into this
tick box thing where

you’re going in there, and you think you're
going to be at a disadvantage

if you answer these questions
a certain way.

And the reality
is that you're actually not,

and there would probably be a better way to
be able to service you if you answer that,

but there's this shame factor
in the Indigenous culture

where it's like, “I'm not going to
answer the questions like that

because I'm not going
to be X, Y, and Z.”

So, there was a fella that I remember,
who stands out. His name's Ashley.

And he was rocking up to a program, he was five
minutes away, and I was running this thing

out of Clontarf Academy,
and it was for two weeks,

and he was late,
like probably the first four days.

And I pulled him to the side,

I was like, “come on man, like seriously,
you got to tell me why

you're late, you're the closest
one that lives here,

and the last one getting here.”
And he looked at me and was like,

“Austin, I’ve got a sleeping problem.”

Basically, what he told me was
he grew up in the care system,

didn't have no real connection
to anyone, you know.

So already you know, me, obviously working
alongside the Department of Child Protection

and in that space, I kind of have
an understanding about

people that have moved around
in the out-of-home care service.

Next thing I said was, “well, I'm going
to challenge you this -

that I want you to be on time every day
for the rest of the workshop.”

And he was the first one there,
which blew me away.

So, straight away
that taught me that, you know,

maybe he's never had somebody
kind of pull him up, you know?

So anyway, Ashley did that.

Long story short, I had a conversation
with an Aboriginal-owned Security Company.

He then went through Cert II in Security.

He now looks after over 250 cameras
and CCTV in Fremantle Square,

and they absolutely love him.

So, you're talking about someone - I tried to find the
happy medium because I knew he liked gaming.

Ellie: Yeah. He sits and watches the screens!

Austin: I knew he liked gaming, and then I knew that,
you know, maybe computers

and after a few conversations
with the general manager,

and yeah, you know,
that's what we were able to find him.

Ellie: We've spoken a lot about the challenges
for Indigenous Australians who want to

enter into the employment space,
but what about businesses?

What can businesses
do better to help support those

processes, to have more Indigenous
and First Nations people working for them?

Austin: I think, again, getting back
to having some representation,

I won't mention the name of the company,
but I think we've come a long way

with a company, and I'm talking about probably
6 or 7 meetings about this exact topic.

And I asked them if they had
cultural awareness training

within their leaders,
and if they've actually

got an Indigenous person
that can pick up the phone.

At the time, they mentioned that they weren't
resourced enough to be able to do that.

So, they've come back to us now,

and some, and that's been amazing,
because what they've done

is they’ve listened to what we know
that works, and I'm no expert,

but I just know that what works
and what doesn't work,

and I think, you know,
having those tough conversations about,

does your team have cultural
awareness training?

Do you have Indigenous representation?

So, if we've got somebody,
that they can actually pick up the phone,

and they would do a pretty good job where
they're skipping through

to the second stage of the process,
like the video interview stuff,

because that also can be a bit daunting
if you've never had an interview before.

So, I think our side, APM,
what we do a really good job

is, you know, we can do all that stuff
and tailor things with our Indigenous

specialist contracts and our staff to have,
you know, tailored things,

interview techniques and styles,
but that can only go so far.

And without practicing that
in a real setting with an employer,

you're not going to know whether you're
going to be successful or not.

But, I think those things, representation,
cultural awareness training,

and actually having people
that want to come out

and make a real difference,
and actually following through and giving

some people a go, adapting, you know,
you've got principal carer parents

out there that might not be able to work
nothing but school hours.

So, make a role that adapts within school
hours, and then you've got

Sorry Business as well,
which can go on for no time frame,

you know, and I think there should be
permissible breaks, so to speak,

in the workplace,
which allows for all that stuff

where people can come back and
continue if

they've lost somebody in their family
and things like that.

So, it's having an understanding
about the culture, and actually tailoring

some jobs that actually fit those things,
which there's no knock out factors.

And I think that's how you make a real
change, and a bit more of a difference.

And if you're a business, that's
what I’d encourage you to try and do.

Ellie: Businesses and organisations
are really beginning to understand

the benefits of diversity and inclusion
within their organisations.

But for employment of
First Nations Australians,

what are some of the benefits
that you've seen?

Austin: Well, I think not only is it rewarding,
so there's a sense of belonging and a sense of self,

I think it's a sense of pride
for someone,

and obviously, sometimes what
I've learned just from hearing

from people, is sometimes your money is not
your money, it's the family's money.

So, there's also this thing where,
if I get a job, then

I've got to take care of the whole family
because that's the culture.

So I think, you know, being able

to empower people where they can actually -
you can give them the toolkit

where, you know, that they can
actually save for themselves

and still achieve these things, and go buy
a house and go buy a car, and still

look after the family, is a big thing,
and you can do that with employment.

So, I think that's one of the benefits.

Employers, you know, there's incentives.

We give - we've got government grants,

wage subsidies that, you know, I think a lot of
people actually don't know about.

And if you're a small business,
I think that is a huge thing, to be able

to get up to $10,000 if someone's
working a minimum of 15 hours.

And I think that right there,
it's not about the money,

but that's what you can do to actually
then build your own workplace

and you can go and get, you know,

move people on to further things
where they're actually upskilling,

and have your own tailored program

within your organisation,
which can then have a flow on effect.

Ellie: I think Australia's come a long way
with cultural awareness around Indigenous Australians.
Austin: Long way.

Ellie: Like, I remember being in primary school
and we never did any kind of

‘Welcome to Country’ or ‘Acknowledgment of Country’,
and to see Australia really beginning

to embrace the importance of that,
I'm sure makes a huge difference.

But I still feel like
we have such a long way to go.

How important do you think the training
and awareness is for organisations?

To keep that momentum going?
Austin: I think it’s extremely important.

I’d almost stick that at the top and,

I think what I've been really fortunate
about is, we've got a couple of Elders,

I always try and engage
with the local Elder,

I think every program
needs to be localised in the local area

and giving that ownership
to our local teams on the ground

to go and source that
if we can, is the first thing,

because local people have a connection
to their local Elders.

That's just the way it is.

And I think that we do a very good job
at APM at doing that.

And I've even got one Elder who literally
has travelled to every state, bar WA,

but she'll be here in December,
and delivered probably, you know,

30 plus workshops for us,
for our First Nations participants,

and I think that goes a long way in itself.

Ellie: So, if an organisation wanted
to take the first step into employment

of First Nations Australians,
what advice would you give them?

Austin: Just actually get out there
and speak to local people,

speak to Aboriginal people
about how you can build your business.

So I think, you know, and my understanding
is you can't work with everyone, right?

Because I don't think
everyone has those

pure intentions about putting
the people first.

But, you can go and ask the question
and figure out what you can do,

and ask Aboriginal people
about what do they want?

Because if you’re asking what they want,

you've got a better chance
of getting it right.

Ellie: It’s not making assumptions.

Austin: It's not making assumptions, no.

And I think often
there is these assumptions,

“they don't do X, Y and Z” or something,
but that's not actually coming

from their understanding of what
might have impacted them and their family.

So, I think that's the way
that things should be done,

is if you want to do Indigenous programs,
all that stuff, it should be led that way,

or at least put in with those contexts
where it comes

from a cultural perspective,
because with that,

that means a lot more than what
we are ever going to be able to do for them.

Ellie: I think what a lot of businesses
and organisations

don't see in implementing those processes
is the benefits that it can have

to all of their other employment
programs as well.

You know, the way that you
practice your hiring practices,

and the way that you deliver your employment
within your organisation,

if you're tailoring it to specific people in mind,
it can actually benefit everybody.

Austin: It could benefit everyone.

I think hiring policies, is what you just touched on,
is a huge thing.

Not doing it the same way that you might have done it
in the past, and actually doing it a unique way.

So, I often try to get companies to come out

and speak to people in their own
comfortable environment, which I think is huge.

But I think businesses
can also do that. With some businesses,

having an Aboriginal person in there,
or having multiple Aboriginal people

working in there,
can actually teach you a lot,

because then you can learn
about the culture,

learn about the people, and go, “oh,
this is actually, you know, it's great.”

Ellie: Yeah. And it's so empowering for
those that come through to APM.

But it's also really empowering
for those who work for APM.

I've been fortunate
to be able to speak to quite

a number of people that work for APM,
and it's exactly the same message.

They're so empowered.
They love what they do.

They can really see the benefits to
the community with the work that they do.

And it's, so many nice stories to hear.

Austin: That's the most rewarding part, I think,

about working in the employment
service space is

you can have something that you've
done many years ago

that has an affect years later
and only hear about it.

I think the other way,

and this was a non-Aboriginal person,
but I got a phone call

from a company that I did
the only Perth North’s local jobs program,

and I had a hard time filling this program.

There was a lot of pressure, mind you,
because we do live in a space

where it's a lot of pressure, and
you want to see things succeed.

But, they actually told me that
this individual is,

had the day off work because they'd
just been given keys to their

first home that they'd built
on their own.

And, they’re still working in the same job,

and they have their partner working for.

So, I think that's the cool bit, you know,
like you might not know until later on,

but I think having that employer
actually pick up the phone

that actually made my week,
not just day.

Ellie: That would’ve made my whole year.

But I think the thing you also don't
really realise is that that has a cascade

effect to every single person in their,
you know, family and their community as well.

Austin: Family and the community,
and if you've come from nothing and,

you know, your whole family is
kind of struggling day-to-day

and you can light that fire
and that one person grabs

a hold of that opportunity,
that might actually get the next person.

And I think that's
the beauty of employment, you know.

Ellie: It's been interesting as, I suppose,
in my background, being a Paralympian

I've always been around
very like-minded people,

people with very similar stories, very similar
drive in terms of representing Australia.

But for me, it's been really
special working with APM

because I get to come in
and speak to people

like you and people who work for APM,
who have so many different backgrounds,

so many different stories,
but the theme is very similar

that comes through in that everyone does
deserve the same opportunities.

Austin: Yes.

Ellie: And to be able to work with an organisation
who share very similar values

to what I do in enabling better
lives, has been so incredible for me.

I've loved being here for the last
two days and speaking to people like you.

Austin: That’s awesome.

Ellie: So, I was equally excited
to speak to you as well,

but I think you have one of the
coolest jobs ever.

Austin: It's very, very cool. I'm very fortunate.

I mean, I've got to travel
right around the country,

and work with our teams
and meet people,

you know, and find out what
what's it like,

what's a day in their life
like, living out here and

wondering what they do on a day-to-day.

And, I think then trying to collaborate
with community organisations and partners

and stuff, and trying to tailor
something that's going to benefit

the individuals that we serve,
and show that we're not just

your general service provider, that we're,
you know, we're really different.

And we like to tailor,
and actually meet people where they're at,

and create opportunities,
I think is a big thing.

And it goes back to our motto,
enabling better lives.

Ellie: Thank you, Austin,
so much for coming in today.

Austin: Thank you so much.
Was an absolute pleasure.

Ellie: It was amazing to meet you and thank you
for all the work you do at APM.